CP Joshi, minister for rural development and panchayati raj, oversees the implementation of the National Rural Employment Guarantee Act (NREGA), the scheme that some consider partly responsible for giving UPA a second term.
In this exclusive interview with Brajesh Kumar at his official residence in New Delhi, Joshi says he will be able to plug loopholes in the implementation of the Act in a year or so. He also fields questions on issues ranging from the Provisions of the Panchayats (Extension to the Scheduled Areas) Act, whose poor implementation has been blamed for the rise of Maoism in tribal areas, to rural drinking water and sanitation.   

It has been four years since the poverty alleviation scheme NREGA came into force. As the minister of rural development, how do you assess the implementation of the Act?
The NREGA has been a great success in providing employment to a vast multitude of the unemployed unskilled labour force across rural India. Look at the figures: 2.1 crore households were provided employment under the Act during 2006-07, 3.39 crore during 2007-08, 4.51 crore during 2008-09 and 4.49 crore households in 2009-10, up to January 2010. The average wage paid per person-day was Rs 65 in 2006-07, Rs 75 in 2007-08, Rs 84 in 2008-09 and Rs 88.56 in 2009-10.

Yet, problems persist, such as the failure of the states in appointing ombudsmen, delays in wage payments, fudging of muster rolls…
I agree. It requires further vigilance and we are addressing all the charges of imperfect implementation of the Act. But by and large, an awakening has been brought about. The states are taking huge interest. We have interacted with all the political parties and the issue has been debated at length in parliament through questions. Things are improving. Yes, there are still some deviations but we hope the states will cooperate with us.

How would you explain the disparities in implementation of the NREGA across states? While Andhra Pradesh and Rajasthan are believed to be doing very well, there are complaints about large-scale corruption in states like Uttar Pradesh and Bihar.
You have to see the Act in the right spirit. It is a demand-driven scheme, not a scheme that you implement and the money starts flowing. Since it is demand driven, individuals have to ask for work. Therefore, there will always be a skewed ratio in terms of its implementation. Having said that, I must admit there were issues of large-scale corruption initially. There were charges of using machines and contractors, fudging of muster rolls. Gradually we addressed those issues. We thought of using information technology in a big way.  My ministry is going to look at the use of biometrics and e-muster rolls soon. In a year or so, we will be able to plug the loopholes.

There is an impression that the states do not listen to the centre. A case in point is the appointment of an ombudsman in each district, who would oversee implementation of the NREGA. Barring Punjab, no state has appointed ombudsmen though some have initiated the process.
Ours is a federal structure where the centre can only advise the states on matters pertaining to state subjects.  We are giving all the advice we can to the states. However, now on we have linked the release of funds to the compliance with all the instructions on the implementation of the scheme.

There is a talk of ‘NREGA II’. What exactly is NREGA II?
There is nothing called NREGA II. What you are probably referring to is actually expansion of the scope of the NREGA within its own framework. States have been asking to extend the scope of the work beyond the nine areas prescribed in the Act. Since you cannot change the scheme without amending the Act, we have to find ways to meet their demands. One may call this the widening of the scope of the NREGA. However, we have to roll that out gradually to keep it relevant to the demands of people. We have formed various sub-groups to advise us on this. They are in the process of documenting the recommendations.

One criticism of the scheme has been that it has been creating a large pool of unskilled workers who dig earth and nothing else…
We have a plan in place whereby the members of a household that has availed of 100 days of NREGA work will be trained in some semi-skilled work that will help them earn a living without being dependent on manual work. That will be done through integration of the NREGA with a new scheme called National Rural Livelihood Mission.

Recently there were media reports about the deletion of a chapter called ‘PESA – left wing extremism and governance’ from the State of the Panchayats 2008-09 that was released by the prime minister in April this year. It’s said the chapter was expunged because it was critical of the government’s performance in implementing PESA. Your reaction?
The study was commissioned before I became a minister and therefore I am not aware of the terms and conditions of the study. The panchayati raj secretary will be able to tell you.

Were you aware of the deletion?
It is all over the media; so of course I am aware of it now. But I was not aware of the terms and conditions of the study and why the chapter was not included. It was also not brought to my notice when it was released.

But you accept that the implementation of PESA has been a problem. The panchayati raj secretary has written umpteen numbers of letters to the state secretaries on its poor implementation.
As I said earlier, ours being a federal structure, panchayat is a state subject and only states can answer your question on its poor implementation. But, why suddenly this awakening on PESA? It was passed in 1996 and since then there have been various parties in power at the centre and the states. Parties need to address the issue.

Your ministry has fixed 2012 as the year when India will achieve universal sanitation. But a recent World Bank report says that at the current rate, India will achieve universal sanitation only in 2020.
We are reviewing the work. At present, I would not be able to react, but we are striving to meet the target. There has been a gradual awakening and here I would mention Nirmal Gram Yojana, the scheme that gives cash incentives to villages that achieve total sanitation. Ever since it has been introduced, the number of villages attaining total sanitation has been increasing.

Nonetheless you would not be able to meet your own target of 2012.
As a minister, obviously, I would not admit that (smiles). We have to take all the states on board; we have to interact with them, motivate them. If there are loopholes, we will endeavour to plug them.

In case of rural drinking water, ground water contamination is a serious issue. How are you addressing it?
It’s an issue that is entirely in the court of the states. We are just the donor ministry.

Your department of drinking water and sanitation exists precisely to oversee the states’ work.

No, we just provide funds. State governments have their plan funds. Both, the central and the state governments provide funds for addressing this. We are nonetheless aware of the presence of arsenic and fluoride in ground water in rural India but, as I said, the states will have to address it.

After becoming the central minister, you have been pushing for building of panchayat ghar, or the ‘Rajiv Gandhi sewa kendras’, across the states. What is the idea behind it?
When I became the minister, I learnt that the NREGA requires individuals to submit applications to their panchayats, but I was shocked to know that out of 2.5 lakh panchayats, around 70,000 had no building to work from. So where will an individual submit an application? Also, the success of the NREGA hinges on IT, but if we don’t have a panchayat ghar how will the IT play its role. So I thought of introducing this concept of Rajiv Gandhi sewa kendras, wherein the first and foremost thing that a panchayat would do is build a panchayat ghar that will become the hub of all activities. These kendras will be linked through IT and all IT-enabled services will be provided here. State governments have taken it positively and panchayat ghar is being built wherever it is absent.